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Roundel Wood

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Commenced:	01/01/2010
Submitted:	09/02/2011
Last updated:	07/10/2015
Location:	Roundel Wood, Dollar, Clackmannanshire, GB
Phone:	(44)7968319833
Website:	http://roundelwoods.blogspot.com/
Climate zone:	Cool Temperate

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Roundel Wood

Dollar, GB

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Design

Project: Roundel Wood

Posted by Andrew Ramponi almost 14 years ago

One Difficulty with Design

The difficult thing for me with the concept of design is putting pen or pencil to paper; whenever I do the result invariably looks rubbish. Learning how to draw on the pc is better, though still tough.

here is a 1st attempt at the 1/2 Forest garden done with Paint. i'm also fiddling with google Sketch Up.

Suggestions for other approaches would be most appreciated!

Comments (11)

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Elena Parmiggiani : Hi! Don't get discouraged! :) I want to get some drawing lessons from a friend, also I already know how to use some vector drawing tools, like illustrator. Darren doherty uses mapinfo: https://picasaweb.google.com/permaculture.biz/MapInfoManual (also have a look at his portfolio of designs and course, a lot of info) https://picasaweb.google.com/permaculture.biz maybe you can find this interesting: http://permaculture.org.au/2010/09/28/how-to-use-powerpoint-for-permaculture-designs/

and Nick Huggins is very good: http://permaculture.org.au/author/Nick%20Huggins

Both designers are here in WPN, so maybe you can contact them? I wish you all the best! Elena

Posted almost 14 years ago

David Muhl : Hi Andrew,

I would encourage you to not give up designing with pencil and paper. I know that there is a wide variety of computer software available today, and that if a person invests enough time in learning a particular program, you can produce some great looking drawings and/or graphics. However, this is really what these programs are for...finished drawings and graphics...not for designing. Yes, there are terrain modeling programs that can be useful in developing a concept, but unless you're working on a really large site, it probably isn't necessary. There's really no substitute for pen (or pencil) on paper. A roll of tracing paper is invaluable, as you can lay out some ideas, then drop another sheet over the top. You can still see your first thoughts through the overlay, but then you can try other ideas. You end up combining ideas, comparing ideas, starting over, etc. You can just pour your thoughts onto paper really quickly. This is the easiest way to "design." I wouldn't even go near a computer until it's necessary. Why spend all those hours trying to make a pretty picture? It's what get's built that really counts! Wait until you've developed your ideas on paper before taking that next step.

One thing that is nice about electronic media is the ability to produce multiple copies of your design. You don't have to scan or take photographs of your work, and it's easy to create PDF's or send files to a print shop, but again, this isn't design, it's mostly for presentation. If you have the ability to meet face to face with your group, client, or stakeholders, an electronic copy may not even be necessary.

If there is any way you can think of whereby I could help you with drawing, let me know. I really would love to help, but I'm not sure about the best way to go about it over the internet. Feel free to ask any questions you might have.

David

Posted almost 14 years ago

Grahame Eddy : Personally, I think it is a beautiful picture Andrew. If one of my girls drew that for me I would frame it.

There are freeware drawing programs out there that might suit you. I use Inkscape Vector Graphic Editor to do a lot of my graphic work. You can download it @ http://inkscape.org/download/

Posted almost 14 years ago

Andrew Ramponi : Thank you all for the very helpful suggestions. It speaks volumes for this site.

Elena. I will look in detail at Mapinfo and your other recommendations.

Your project looks fantastic. I have Italian family who farm (fairly conventionally i think)in the Cremona/Parma region so I'll send them the link to the fattoria - maybe it'll inspire them to look differently at some things.

David. I am going to buy today - not tomorrow! - a roll of tracing paper and a roll of plain paper. I carry a prejudice about my drawing abilities from early school days, and that is a bit of an old, inexcusable handicap.

The SPIN farming concept is interesting. Something of a win/win situation. Marketing and presentation of produce has some way to go at markets here (Fife Scotland) before it comes close to what I saw in a farmers market in California a couple of years ago - but maybe the sun had something to do with it!

Graham. Thank you for that encouragement. I will look at Inkscape and give it a try.

I enjoyed your sincere article on Personal Effort. It made me think of how we are constantly immersed in separating things we are sure about from things we doubt, and their meeting point which is what we do. The best response I can come up with for now is that often we need to proceed with what we believe to be right, not without doubts but in spite of them; whilst remaining aware that in the endless complexities of life some of the things we believe may turn out to be wrong. The only constant is change.

"Now that my ladder is gone I must lie down again where all the ladders start In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart" (WB Yeats)

Posted almost 14 years ago

Chief Phillip 'Cloudpiler' Landis : I have to agree with David. When it came to bringing the elements of the design together, I got lost with the computer modeling I was doing and ended up right back to the overlay method David described. Problem solved! What invariably happens is that Permaculture Design always begins to entail a whole lot more connections and associations than we can ever imagine in the beginning. Pencil and paper connects you to all those elements in a way that is difficult with the computer, at least for me anyway. I can still create an pictorial demonstration of the evolution of my design because I still have all the drawings on the wall.

Posted almost 14 years ago

David Muhl : It has always been so easy for me to get "lost in the details" of a site design, especially early on. I'm just that way by nature...very detail oriented. I would focus in on little areas of the project, but while doing so, I would often lose sight of the bigger picture. This actually is fairly common for a lot of people. One of the most helpful things another designer ever did for me was to take that fine-tipped pen away from me and put one with a nice fat tip in my hand. It helped me to stay focused on the big picture. Then, once I was truly happy with the direction I'd created for the overall site, I could could do some blow-ups of particular areas and develop them further (using my favorite fine-tip).

Posted almost 14 years ago

Darren J. Doherty : G'day,

I would have to endorse the comments around not giving up on hand sketches...I am still pretty crap at hand drafting though better than when I started. Early on I modeled my style on Andrew Jeeves' illustrations (Permaculture Design Manual illustrator) and found that this helped a lot. Also looking at engineers and architects drawings and basically doing the best I could. As Elena suggested, have a look at my PhotoLog (https://picasaweb.google.com/permaculture.biz/PermacultureDesignPortfolio?feat=directlink) and you can the evolution of my sketches and how I also use GIS/CAD programs such as MapInfo and AutoCAD. I would also suggest having a read of my 'Off the Contour' article titled 'A Permaculturalists Retrospective VII' where I discuss this topic in greater length. Otherwise I will be in the UK later in the year doing at least one Advanced Designer's workshop where we'll be looking at building design skills using a variety of techniques, software and methods....Best thing to do is keep at it and maybe take a class (I wish I had/would!). All the best, Darren Doherty

Posted almost 14 years ago

Darren J. Doherty : Sorry that article is listed at: http://regenag.blogspot.com/2010/10/off-contour-4-permaculturalists.html

Ciao,

Darren

Posted almost 14 years ago

Deano Martin : Hi Andrew You've had some expert advice, which should stand you in good stead. for myself, I don't draw anything. I just mark it out on the ground, and then plant up. I have also done some simple sketches, by hand, using landscape templates. You don't need to mkae it look fantsatic if you're designing it for yourself. It's the thinking that's important, not the presentation. Good Luck with all that you do. Deano

Posted almost 14 years ago

Andrew Ramponi : Thanks to everyone who has commented here, there are lots of brilliant and simple suggestions. My main take away is keep at it!

Posted almost 14 years ago

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